Dave Page (dpage@dial.pipex.com)
Wed, 2 Aug 2000 19:09:10 +0100
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Murphy" <Paul.Murphy@gemini-genomics.com>
To: <histrenact@novar.co.uk>
Sent: 02 August 2000 18:20
Subject: Re: [Histrenact] - Re: [Histrenact] : Wearing a sword inpublic
> Dave Page makes an interesting point:
>
> >SCENARIO: The show has ended on a Saturday. A few people go into town to
go
> >to the chippy/off licence/supermarket/wherver. One has a sword on him.
Since
> >he is:
> >- in a public place
> >- is carrying a weapon made for causing injury (the intentions of the
person
> >are NOT relevant at this stage)
> >- does not have reasonable excuse (as the show has ended)
> >- is carrying an article with a blade and/or is pointed
>
> >There is no such thing as a permit to carry such a weapon in the UK and
> >carrying such a weapon for "self-defence" is asking for it, in my
opinion.
> >The police merely enforce the law, and if you are caught breaking them
you
> >could be arrested (in the case above I would arrest - Yes, I am a polce
> >officer). It is up to the CPS to decide whether to prosecute and the
courts
> >to decide guilt or not.
>
> The police do indeed enforce the law, although of course we are all aware
that
> their enforcement is subject to interpretation and the attitude of the
officer
> at the time. ANY implement can be construed as an offensive weapon under
the
> correct circumstances - for example, a set of keys held so that one key
projects
> between the knuckles, and arrests and prosecutions have been made under
such
> circumstances.
This is indeed true (called stated cases) and they are a very useful tool in
law for establishing guilt or innocence by precedent of the courts.
> The important point is that the police must be able to show just cause for
the
> arrest. In the case of a re-enactor walking down the street with a sword
> outside of show or training hours, Dave would make an arrest. Others
wouldn't.
Most of my clooegues aggreed with what I said as I raised this discussion
with the rest of the shift. Now this is in part due to local procedure. We
have a "zero tolerance" policy when it comes to weapons in a public place.
> In general it will then be up to the custody sergeant to decide whether to
pass
> it up the chain of command and then to the CPS, and the CPS would then
decide
> whether to prosecute.
Not the case. It is up to the arresting officer to liase with the custody
sgt. as to whether there is suffienient evidence to charge. If there is,
then a formal charge will be made.
>If you had made no threat with the sword, did not draw
> it, and no-one complained about it, then the average sergeant would pat
the
> constable on the head, say "good doggy" and send him/her back onto the
street to
> find some _real_ criminals while apologising to you in the hope that you
don't
> say the words "arrest" and "wrongful" in the same sentence.
> On the other hand,
> if you get snotty with the constable, try to argue the point, or generally
make
> his/her life difficult, then _everyone_ you meet while progressing through
the
> legal system will brand you as a trouble maker and you _will_ find
yourself
> being prosecuted.
Again, not true. If a law is broken, then an offence has been comitted - and
in this case the two acts I quoted from have a power of arrest. Therefore,
if they are broken, then you can be arrested. The officer does have
discretion, but where weapons are concerned, the chances are you may be
arrested. The police can always de-arrest later, or refuse charge.
Having the sword in a scabbard around your waist is an offence enough -
offensive weapon and a bladed article.
Incidentally what is a "real criminal"? In my book a criminal is a person
who breaks the law, be it Murder, Assault, Drunk and Disorderly or drunk in
charge of sheep on a public highway (no, really).
> A case in point was the arrest and detention of a chef in 1998 for
carrying a
> set of knives in his car without just cause. Having established at the
station
> that he was a chef (a call to his employer sorted it out), he was released
> without charge, and his knives returned. No problem. However, he sued
for
> wrongful arrest, but the judge ruled against him on the basis that the
police
> have a duty of care, and would have been negligent in allowing him to
continue
> on his way while in possession of the knives unless he could prove that he
had a
> valid reason for carrying them. In other words, guilty until proven
innocent.
> This little gem of legal precedent has never been tested in a higher
court,
> since the award of costs against the chef left him unable to take it
further.
This is used as a stated case at training school (digging out my notes of
old) - the point is that there was no wrongful arrest, as the officer in
question was not satisfied with the reason given by the chef - as an aside,
a builder was arrested a few weeks ago whilst walking to work at 4am - the
reason? He had a number of chisels, screwdrivers and a jemmy in a bag -
arrested for going equipped. Once his employer had been contacted he was
released - no complaint. He was glad we were checking and being vigilant
about peoples movements.
At the end of the day, if you have a reasonable excuse for carrying a weapon
then there should be no problem - but it may involve a trip to the station
if you are silly enough to carry it (or wear it) in broad daylight
uncovered. My advice would be to try and make it look as anonymous as
possible. I remeber dealing with a member of the publis (and, as it turned
out a re-enactor) who enquired about carrying a deactivated sten gun on the
train. I checked with my suporvisor and he aggreed with me... Wrap it in a
blanket, tape it securely and make sure he didn't leave it unattended or
unwrap it until he got to the event.
> >And remember if you are arrested and charged, your weapon will be siezed
and
> >it is very unlikly to be returned.
>
> The police have the power to confiscate anything which they deem to be an
> offensive weapon. Having done so, they _must_ return it if you can then
provide
> a valid reason for having it, as state-sponsored theft is not yet legal
in this
> country. As a result, it is vitally important that if you are ever
requested to
> hand over your re-enactment equipment to the police, you should do so but
GET A
> RECEIPT for it, preferably from the desk sergeant at the police station.
If you
> can't prove that they have it, how can you demand it back?
Sec. 19 of PACE 1984 gives a power of seizure, and in this case it would be
applicable as it is evidence in relation to an offence. As for the reciept,
the officer would be acting unlawfully if a receipt was not given, and as a
matter of course most officers carry a reciept book with them amongst the
miriad of other bits of paper. The weapon would then also be booked in to
the DPR (Detained Property Register) and its location recorded. It could
then be claimed if (a) no further action was taken (b) charges later dropped
or (c) cleared by a court.
Incidentally, getting it from the desk sgt. dosen't make any difference to
the siezure of the item.
> >In my opinion, don't carry a weapon, no matter how small, in a public
place
> >after the show has finished - its asking for trouble.
>
> I would back this statement wholeheartedly, as apart from the potential
for the
> police to take a dim view of your actions, the possibility of having it
stolen,
> or wrenched away from you by a drunk, mugger, or other unsuitable wielder
is
> always present.
Again, best thing to do is lock in your car or leave it in your tent if you
go off site after the show is over.
Contrary to popular opinion, most coppers have a fair amount of common
sense, and if theres a big event in town, they'll know about it. BUT, it'll
only take one idiot to ruin it for everyone!
Cheers
Dave
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.0b3 on Tue 30 Jan 2001 - 02:31:30 GMT